Curse

Konig Des Todes · Aug 28, 2008, 04:03 AM // 04:03

This I noticed while looking up info on the Remnant of Antiquities that was brought up in this post in this thread.

Sepulchre

While looking at the name of the dungeon, I started wondering who or what Dragrimmar was. There are two referrences to the name in the dungeon and the quest related to it. The dungeon name itself, Sepulchre of Dragrimmar, and the Anvil of Dragrimmar. At first, I always thought Dragrimmar was the name of the actual Anvil.

I was curious what Sepulchre meant, so I looked it up:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dictionary.com

sepulchre
noun
a chamber that is used as a grave [syn: burial chamber]
__________________________________________________
sepulchre [ˈsepəlkə] noun
a tomb

So Sepulchre means a tomb or burial ground, this is even backed up by the Remnant's skill effect "Diamondshard Grave". Which means that Dragrimmar, despite my first thought, was a living being not a object.

Anvil of Draggrimar

Now, that explains the name of the dungeon, a tomb of a person named Dragrimmar. But what about the Anvil? Well, we know the Anvil's origin:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outrunner Remlok

You've got the look of one who understands Dwarves. Yes, I think you'd be more suitable. Listen to my tale:
After many years of searching, I have tracked down an artifact of great import to the Dwarven people...the Anvil of Dragrimmar. Some say the Great Dwarf himself stood at this anvil forging great and powerful weapons, much as he forged our people. Alas, time clouds the stories and the anvil's resting place was lost. But we know it lies in wait for the time when our people will need it once again.
We believe that time is nigh, and my research has led me here. I tried to explore the depths of the sepulchre, but the traps befuddled me. At heart I'm a fighter, not a thinker. I need someone with the wit to navigate the traps and the strength to brave the terrors below to escort me to the anvil. If you've a will to help, the Dwarven people would be eternally indebted to you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outrunner Remlok

It's true then. The anvil exists! I dared not hope, but... This is great work you've done, friend. As I meditate here I may learn to be a better smith, to be able to help my people in their coming travails. Take this as a sign of the gratitude owed ye by the entire Dwarven nation, friend.

This shows that the Anvil belonged to the Great Dwarf at one point in time.

So, does that mean that the Great Dwarf's name was Dragrimmar, and if he was killed, which is a possibility, his body could have been buried somewhere in this dungeon.

This picture I just took for my own pleasure, and would like to point out to any how the Great Dwarf would have forged weapons down in the ice covered dungeon.

Sage Bollnar

Outside the dungeon, there are two dwarfs, Outrunner Remlok which I quoted, and Sage Bollnar. This is what Sage has to say:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sage Bollnar

Legends tell of an anvil of great power called the Anvil of Dragrimmar. Some say it was used by the Great Dwarf himself. Upon its face he forged weapons with the strength of our people and shields as unbreakable as our collective will. There's no doubt the Anvil of Dragrimmar exists, but whether it truly belogned to the Great Dwarf... that mystery may never be uncovered. But I do believe we are now close to reclaiming it. And, who knows? Perhaps the answer to this mystery will finally be found as well. The times grow dark, friend. It doesn't take a scholar to see that, and even I will rest easier knowing this power is back in our hands.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sage Bollnar

Aye, there's the rub. The nub of the matter you might say. Of defenses this place has many. I've seen some, at least as far in as Remlok lead us. You will find gates within, all sealed and named for the virtues our people received from the Great Dwarf: strength, kinship, and unity. From what I can tell, the way forward will only open to those who talk the path of the virtues. I've seen devices that open the gates. They are branded the same. When I used one, I heard gates before me opening and the distant sounds of others closing. The way forward must lie in finding the correct path to walk through the virtues.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sage Bollnar

Oh, my. Frightful creatures await you inside, manifested of ice and forgotten memories. Not the sort of thing I care for, you know. One story even tells of a guardian known as the Remnant of Antiquities awaiting within the anvil chamber. It is said the creature was shaped and brought to life by the Great Dwarf himself to guard the anvil until such time that our people would once again need its power. The tales also tell of one who would prove worthy of claiming it. I can only wonder at what terror could, watching and waiting for ages innumerable, down in the dark. The thought makes my spine tingle. That place is its domain, friend. I could imagine the air itself turning against you. Best step lightly.

So it seems, at least to Dwarf Legends, and the Great Dwarf had a lot to do with the Anvil and this dungeon. The Great Dwarf hid the Anvil here, even creating puzzles and guardians to protect it until it was needed. Another thing that points to my theory.

Your thoughts and opinions on this.

Note: I am not saying that it is fact that the Great Dwarf's name is Dragrimmar, but through looking at this, this seems to be implied. I am just wanting other's ideas on this.

carnage-runner · Aug 28, 2008, 05:10 AM // 05:10

I'm leaning towards your right... It's extremely plausible that the tomb of Dragrimmar is the tomb of The Great Dwarf. It is unfortunate however that the only thing we know of TGD's last location is the Great Forge.(suspected in the texts) With all the talk of Dragon's though, I also would say it's possible that it could be the tomb of an ancient dragon... Anyone seen any in SoD anywhere?

Konig Des Todes · Aug 28, 2008, 06:47 AM // 06:47

That Dragrimmar is an Ancient Dragon is highly unlikely. No Ancient Dragon is near another, the closest is Drakkar and Grothmar, which are still in totally different areas.

If Dragrimmar was an Ancient Dragon, it would be the true name of Drakkar, but if that was the case, then it wouldn't be a tomb, or Sepulchre, since Drakkar is not in the Dungeon. The closest to an Ancient Dragon Dragrimmar would be is a minion of Drakkar, but with knowledge of the Ancient Dragons unknown, I find it unlikely that the dungeon would be named after a general *the only known entity from the Ancient Dragon's time is the Great Destroyer*.

Edit: After going through, the only area I could see something that would be as large as an Ancient Dragon, would be this spot past the Anvil.

Notice that there is nothing there.

Note: I did not explore all of level one, I just remembered the large area and wanted to see if there was something there.

Free Runner · Aug 28, 2008, 11:55 AM // 11:55

I doubt its the tomb of the Great Dwarf. If he was buried there it would be held with greater respect by the Dwarves. It would be an holy site.

I always figured that the Tomb was named for the Anvil. One of the Dwarves mentions the resting place of the Anvil was lost. How the Anvil was named could of been anything - possibly from the location it was created at.

I also very much doubt that theres a dragon in there. To add on what Azazel said - it would be overkill to put two ancient dragons in the same place. Dragrimmar could be the Drakkar Lake Dragons name but we would have to ask what the Great Dwarf is doing naming Anvils after Evil Ancient Dragons. Of course he has apparantly battled a Dragons minion in the past....

Shasgaliel · Aug 28, 2008, 12:27 PM // 12:27

Droknar was "just" a king of dwarves and his beacons are in every dungeon, his weapons have specific status/skin and there is even a city with his name. I think The Great Dwarf would have been respected even more therefore I think if it was really his tomb then there would have been dwarven outposts/pilgrimages all around it.

"Just outside of Ice Tooth Cave, Dwarven clan leaders held parley at Anvil Rock, a sacred site said to have been the forge of the Great Dwarf himself. The Dwarven clans no longer meet for purposes of peace, and no one holds out hope that the Great Dwarf will ever return to Tyria, so this icy place receives few visitors."

Area of Anvil Rock is believed to take its name of the anvil looking like rock which is believed to be the one of the Great Dwarfs. I would then not consider the one in Dungeon as his. It could be he just temporary used it. Might be he had several ones.

Konig Des Todes · Aug 28, 2008, 05:13 PM // 17:13

Just because the dungeon is the resting place of the Anvil of Dragrimmar, doesn't mean only the anvil is there. I don't see why something would be called a tomb if it was for only an anvil.

Also, for the argument that the tomb would be more known if it was the Great Dwarf's can be explained two ways. 1. He left and then died, the dwarves would not know that he would have died and the Norn, or some other race *possibly even the Remnants of Antiquities* buried him there and named the place. 2. *and more likely* It was forgotten through legends that the Great Dwarf was buried here.

As for Anvil Rock, I think that is more of a legend, a myth, then actuality. If it was true, it would mean the Great Dwarf was the size of a Giganticus Lupicus, or bigger. Why would a GL-sized being give life to something that's suppose to be about 3 feet tall?

DarkFlame · Aug 28, 2008, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Quote:

the Anvil of Dragrimmar. Some say the Great Dwarf himself stood at this anvil

There's a disconnect in that dialogue. The anvil belongs to Dragrimmar(or at least is named after Dragrimmar). The GD may have used it at some point in time to forge weapons.

I think its a pretty big leap to say Dragrimmar is the Great Dwarf based on that tidbit. No where does it say that the anvil belonged to the GD or is named after him. If the anvil did belong to the GD, then why the hesitation in pointing out that the GD once used the anvil. What not say that the GD did use the anvil, that the GD did forge weapons on it? Why point it out as a rumor and hearsay?

Dragrimmar, due to having a tomb as large as that, may have been another important figure from the past(be it another dwarf or deity for another race or king/blacksmith/hero/etc). Or Dragrimmar may just be vain, spreading a rumor that he's so important that even the GD would come just to use his anvil.

Konig Des Todes · Aug 28, 2008, 05:56 PM // 17:56

The issue I have with people saying with how the dwarves are not positive that the Great Dwarf used the anvil, is that it has obviously been a very long time since the Great Dwarf was around.

Unless things are written down, things are forgotten or changed in the retelling. And even with things written down, what it is written down on can be lost and if it is copied several times, the people who are re-writing what is written can easily "edit" things to their liking. That is true for real life and should be taken into thought for GW as well.

carnage-runner · Aug 28, 2008, 06:29 PM // 18:29

I guess looking at the situation with all likelyness.... The dwarves don't even know what happened to the Great Dwarf. This may have been a shrine centuries ago, or Millenia ago... Look at the pyramids in Egypt.. Great Emperor's are entombed there... People forget stuff when it becomes less important... The notion that the Great Dwarf was forgotten is likely. And along with forgetting him, so would his tomb be forgotten...

My only problem is no one knows if the Great Dwarf died and or was burried there. and a Sepulchre is a burial chamber, not a worshiping site. So that rules out the idea that this was a Shrine. It's simple, either he was burried here, or he wasn't.

He's either burried there and that is his name, or in GW2 we're gonna find out who Dragrimmar is. Maybe a lesser evil? Or a Hero who fought the general of Drakaar? As farfetched as it sounds, it's possible.. The Great Dwarf fought the Great Destroyer of Primodorous, maybe Dragrimmar fought a leader of Drakaar's? Or maybe he is the leader of Drakaar's forces.. Consider how close the Great Destroyer was to Primo's tomb.

Further investigation is needed.

Free Runner · Aug 28, 2008, 06:37 PM // 18:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

Just because the dungeon is the resting place of the Anvil of Dragrimmar, doesn't mean only the anvil is there. I don't see why something would be called a tomb if it was for only an anvil.

It may be a dwarf thing.

Quote:

Also, for the argument that the tomb would be more known if it was the Great Dwarf's can be explained two ways. 1. He left and then died, the dwarves would not know that he would have died and the Norn, or some other race *possibly even the Remnants of Antiquities* buried him there and named the place. 2. *and more likely* It was forgotten through legends that the Great Dwarf was buried here.

For 1. If he left the Dwarves and died, only for the Norn to bury him...how would they know his name? and why wouldnt the Dwarves know where he went?

For 2. I think the Great Dwarfs burial ground would be recorded well.

Konig Des Todes · Aug 28, 2008, 09:07 PM // 21:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

For 1. If he left the Dwarves and died, only for the Norn to bury him...how would they know his name? and why wouldnt the Dwarves know where he went?

For 2. I think the Great Dwarfs burial ground would be recorded well.

It would be possible that he was simply going on a "trip to the north" and was killed after being with the Norn for some time. One of a few possibilities for the Dwarves not knowing where he would have went would be that it was a self-exile, similar to the Exodus of the True Gods. Maybe he did something that he thought was good but turned out to be bad. Maybe it was his trip to fight the Great Destroyer, and after he won he went further north *maybe because of Drakkar's general?* and died.

We know information on the Great Destroyer is in the Tome of the Rubicon, maybe, as that tome is never read until sometime between the time of Prophecies and Eye of the North, the Great Dwarf's name is in the Tome as well. It says Aklar started translating the tome, but it never said he translated it all, so there are still some parts of it that is unknown. And seeing how the Great Dwarf wrote it, with the Tome being the most reliable source, it would not include his deathbed. Although, it might contain his true name.

Also, no matter how much information is recorded, eventually everything will be forgotten. Time wins over everything, even knowledge. Sadly. No matter how well recorded information on the Great Dwarf was, eventually things will be forgotten *even despite the Dwarves basically going "bye bye" now* and there is always the possibility of someone able to remove knowledge from the dwarves.

If this would be the tomb of the Great Dwarf, it is possible he was not a god like the Dwarves believe, and if that is the case, at some point in time someone removed all mortality from his history and turned him into a deity. If that is the case, then his name and resting place would also be removed. But that is just a possibility.

draxynnic · Aug 29, 2008, 03:32 AM // 03:32

I think...

...I think you're building a lot on your dictionary missing a subtlety of definition. I have come across other examples of 'sepulchre' being used as a place of storage for a sacred object instead of the body of an actual living person. In fact, hitting Dictionary.com on the alternate spelling gives:

2. Also called Easter sepulcher. Ecclesiastical.
a. a cavity in a mensa for containing relics of martyrs.
b. a structure or a recess in some old churches in which the Eucharist was deposited with due ceremonies on Good Friday and taken out at Easter in commemoration of Christ's entombment and Resurrection.

I'd say that gives enough leeway for the Sepulchre of Dragrimmar to simply be the burial site of a sacred object, specifically, the Anvil of Dragrimmar, without there being a cadaver somewhere in the dungeon as well.

Konig Des Todes · Aug 29, 2008, 03:43 AM // 03:43

Draxynnic, if you read those two definitions *which I did not see on the site btw*, those are still bodies *or more accurately body-parts* and not objects like an Anvil.

Relics of martyrs usually means bones of the martyr *or saint*.

Eucharist is believed to be the body of Jesus.

So looking at that, it doesn't really give that much more leeway. Although those are not full bodies, and in the Eucharist case a body at all, they are viewed and treated as full bodies.

draxynnic · Aug 29, 2008, 04:06 AM // 04:06

As I said, it's on the alternate spelling (sepulcher).

And relics aren't always body parts - they can also be items associated with the figure. The Holy Grail would be a relic of Jesus, for instance, although most non-body-part relics whose locations are known aren't so famous.

In this case, the Anvil of Dragrimmar could be a relic of the Great Dwarf without there being a body part nearby. Also keep in mind that ANet is probably not going over the definition of every word they use with a comb nearly as fine as you're looking to wield.